The Fare Forward Interview with Jo Walton
Jo Walton has published fifteen novels, most recently Or What You Will. She has also published three poetry collections, two essay collections, and a short story collection. She won the John W. Campbell Award for Best New Writer in 2002, the World Fantasy Award for Tooth and Claw in 2004, the Hugo and Nebula awards for Among Others in 2012, and in 2014 both the Tiptree Award for My Real Children and the Locus Non Fiction award for What Makes This Book So Great. She comes from Wales but lives in Montreal where the food and books are much better. She gets bored easily so she tends to write books that are different from each other. She also reads a lot, enjoys travel, talking about books, and eating great food. She plans to live to be ninety-nine and write a book every year.
Interview Conducted by Sarah Clark
Fare Forward: Why is it important to you to tell stories? What do you think it is about humans that we are so compelled to tell stories, about what has happened or might happen or certainly will not happen but would be wonderful or terrible if it did?
Jo Walton: The way you ask that question makes me wonder what it is you’re contrasting story-telling humans against. Animals? Aliens? Angels? Ghosts? God? Gods? We know some animals tell stories—the bluetits of England who learned to take the foil caps off milk bottles left on doorsteps in the 1930s (to enjoy drinking the cream at the top of the milk) and who remembered how to do it after six long years of WWII with no doorstep milk. They had passed the skill of the cap removal down through three bluetit generations, and yet to the middle generation who had never seen a milk bottle and never would see one it must have seemed a legend they were passing on. I think stories are fundamental to the way we understand the world and our lives. There’s an easy answer that the stories teach us how to get at the cream, like those bluetits. We learn skills from stories, skills like being kind to strangers and the dangers and wonders of agreeing to exchange the cow for a handful of beans. But it’s more than that, even though stories are how we learn they don’t just give us distilled wisdom of the elders, there’s also something deeply satisfying in reading about something coming out the way it’s supposed to. There’s a line in Doctor Seuss’s Horton Hatches an Egg “And it should be, it should be, it should be like that! Because Horton was faithful, he sat and he sat…” and while life is muddled and complex and always going on all around us there’s something very satisfying about a fictional story where things work out the way they should and it is over at the end. Myself I tell stories because I like stories, and I write the kind of stories I like to read.
FF: You have said in other interviews that you read purely for pleasure, most of the time, and not to fulfill anyone’s expectations or to improve yourself. What are you reading right now, and what is great about it?
JW: So I write a monthly column for Tor.com called “Jo Walton’s Reading List” where I list everything I read that month and write a bit about it, and if you want to know what I’m reading specifically you should look at that, I don’t want to repeat myself. But I’ll answer a question you didn’t ask, about what kinds of things I read. Since I started reading primarily on the Kindle I’ve developed over the last decade a habit of reading sixteen books at a time. And I am always reading two novels, one SF or fantasy and one in some genre that isn’t SF or fantasy—mystery, romance, mainstream, whatever. And I am always reading two books of short stories, usually one a single author collection and one an anthology. Similarly I’m always reading two books of poetry, usually one single author and one an anthology. And I’m always reading two books of letters, always from different centuries. Also, I am always reading something translated from Greek or Latin, which can be anything, and also something that is a significant work translated from a language that isn’t Greek or Latin. In this category I’ve read Don Quixote, Miklos Banffy’s Translyvanian Trilogy, The Tale of Genji, the Ramayana, the Bible, a bunch of Italo Calvino, Les Miserables, War and Peace—so it can be anything. Then I’m always reading a book on Italian Renaissance history and another book that’s Renaissance history adjacent. I’m always reading one book of history of some other period and place entirely. I’m usually reading one travel memoir. And the other two books can be any kind of nonfiction! And what I do is that I read a few chapters of one of the novels and then I read a chapter each of three other things, then a few chapters of the other novel, and then a chapter each of three other things, then a chapter of the Italian Renaissance book, then a chapter each of three other things, and back to the first novel. If I am really enjoying something, I’ll just keep on reading it, so sometimes I will read a whole book without a break for other things, but mostly I read like this. It sounds really artificial when I describe it, but I developed it organically, and it’s comfortable and I like it. And it lets me embark on really long things without needing to be swamped by them. It’s hard to sit down and read the whole of the Bible and not read anything else, but thinking OK, I’ll be reading this for a year probably, but in little chunks, interspersed with other things, that makes it manageable. And it also means I’m always finishing things and starting new things, but I never finish everything all at once, so the changeover is gradual, there’s continuity. I’m not suggesting anyone else try this. People need to do their pleasure reading in a way that’s a pleasure for them! But this works for me.
I made an imaginative effort to engage with Christianity there.
FF: We at Fare Forward like to think sometimes about the connection between our minds and our bodies. Fantasy and science fiction obviously engage your mind in delightful ways, but what are your favorite (or least favorite) physical and tactile things about reading and writing?
JW: Well the least favourite thing would be repetitive strain injury from typing too much, and also from holding heavy books, which is why I started reading mainly electronically. I love the look of books on a shelf, I love the tactility of books, but I have come to love having a whole library in my pocket all the time.
FF: You are a secular humanist, but you attended the Festival on Faith and Writing, have reviewed the Holy Bible for Goodreads, and frequently engage with characters of faith in Something or Someone in your books. What interests you about the practice of religion or faith? What do you think it adds to your stories?
JW: So two things. First, the practice of religion has been around for a long time and it isn’t going anywhere, it’s a fundamental part of human society, and secular society needs to develop things that are a whole lot like religious rituals to deal with things that religion has traditionally done, like coming of age, like coping with grief. But even as it does, religions are still going to be there. And this is entirely social. But the second thing is the mystical magical side of religion, and when you’re writing fantasy you’re looking at the numinous, at metaphysics, at magic, and how people deal with that. When I’m in Florence I go to the Latin mass in the Duomo, and it’s a wonderful piece of theatre and it’s a continuity across time, but it’s also a bunch of old men very seriously purifying an altar with smoke and truly believing they’re performing a miracle. And I find that very touching and also it makes me a better fantasy writer to think about that. I like mythology, I like metaphysics, I like playing with all kinds of different ways it can work.
FF: I recently read your 2019 novel Lent and found that it was one of the most generous and understanding portrayals of Christian faith that I have ever come across. There’s no question here—just thank you, I really loved it.
JW: I’m so glad, thank you for telling me. I made an imaginative effort to engage with Christianity there. But you know apocatastasis is a heresy, right, despite St. Gregory of Nyssa, and Origen, and Pico della Mirandola? I looked at Fra Angelico’s Harrowing of Hell and I looked at Christ freeing people from Hell and the demons hiding, and I thought “What if the demon came forward and put their hand out?” What does Christ do? And the official Christian answer is, “They can’t, they rebelled, that’s it, no redemption for you, demon!” And that is a narratively unsatisfying answer. It’s boring. It feels cruel and wrong. And that’s the space I was writing Lent into. [Editor’s Note: There’s debate within Christianity about this question, and not all denominations and traditions come to the same conclusion. And given that this is a work of fiction, we’re also not worried about it!]
I like genre. I am interested in what genre is, what any genre is, and how it works.
FF: You and Ada Palmer are working on a new book, Trace Elements: Conversations on the Project of Science Fiction and Fantasy, and of course your reviews are well known and have been gathered in What Makes This Book So Great. What draws you to questions about genre and convention—what makes thinking about the “meta” of the genres you write in fun?
JW: I like genre. I am interested in what genre is, what any genre is, and how it works. And science fiction is such an interesting genre because it isn’t a standard plot and it isn’t a standard furniture—like a cosy mystery will have a body and a library, and a noir will have a body and mean streets, and a romance will have people falling in love, but SF can have anything, and using it to examine the nature of the universe. But I also love looking at what mysteries are and how they work, and other genres. The meta is the most exciting part for me, stepping back and analysing it and seeing what it is and how it works.
With What Makes This Book So Great I took a bunch of pieces I’d written for Tor.com and just slapped them in a book, it’s a collection of blog posts of me squeeing about books and reading. This collection though is much more thoughtful, it’s got some things Ada and I wrote together, and some she wrote, and some I wrote and then we rewrote together to make them twice as reflective. It was really fun working on it together, and we kept taking a piece and making it into three different pieces because we had so much to say about different aspects of it. We also do a podcast together, sometimes with guests, called Ex Urbe Ad Astra, where we talk about the craft of writing, which is also a lot of fun, and we got the idea of doing a collection together from that. When we first thought of it I thought it would just be pieces of mine and pieces of hers, things that sort of went together, but we ended up with all these great collaborative pieces that I really like and I think are really interesting. It should be out from Tor in May 2024.